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jojo · Dogaholic

Silverwolf,

I may 'know' this, but it is something you should repeat every time you talk about your training regime because it is pretty crucial to most dog owners. It is important for any one who has not read your other posts and then reads this post to understand. It is also particularly relevant as you will notice that many posters on here do have dogs with uncertain backgrounds who may well have suffered 'traumatic experiences' that no one is fully aware of.

JoJo,
Yes you’re right, I keep intending to write them out and paste occasionally for the benefit of new posters, just haven’t got round to it yet.

Silverwolf,
Personal insults are not necessary.

JoJo,

What personal insults? The fact that you could not understand the obvious is not an insult it is a statement of fact and if taken as an insult is solely an emotional reaction of the individual for which I am not responsible.

Silverwolf,
You can still get your point across without having to make offensive remarks or implications about other posters.

JoJo,
Same as above.

SilverWolf · Dogaholic

{Sighs}

Insults:

"My comments were addressed to people like me of ordinary intelligence"
"clearly there are some who need more A is for apple, B is for baa lamb,C is for clot, type basics"

You know exactly why I made the road statement, but I really can't be bothered with this kind of rubbish, Jojo. I am yet to understand why you insist on entering into confrontation and indeed trying to undermine everyone who has a differing opinion, but must have some warped admiration for the way in which you manage to twist words to suit and/or avoid comments/questions you do not wish to answer.

I think I've made all my points pretty clear, and I don't wish to enter into a quarrel. Gone completely off-topic too... apologies to the person who began this thread.

jojo · Dogaholic

Yes your right, it has gone off the subject.

Below I have pasted a passage from an email fom my current client, who spent 11 months with teat training and a life of misery as a result, he did read Jan Fennel and says she does not really say much but is an excellent writer, his comments are not at varience with all people I see, although as a result of my incoming dog I will be seeing no one else for some time to come if ever. ( my frequency will be sorlely missed on here as well)

Maybe others will comment, my comment is she should work on contracts.

From my clients email;
The rubbish that’s written nowadays is really unbelievable as well as dangerous to both owner and animal in my humbleopinion. Its nice to hear that your not from the “show” side which I hold nothing against but have absolutely no inclination to ever consider.

SpeedsMum · DogChat Moderator

Jojo, what behaviour problems have you encountered in your clients dogs that have arisen from training only with positive reinforcement?

Annette

jojo · Dogaholic

Yes I can tell you some things BUT first please tell me what you understand 'positive reinforcement' means and some varied samples of its application, this question includes what do you understand by a dogs positive behaviour, some examples of that please.

jojo · Dogaholic

SAMPLE problems caused by so called ‘positive only training’

The following is a tiny sample of problems, for more samples see this board and any other UK dog board.

IN THE HOME.
NO serious or consistent response to ANY commands (NO etc) Chewing/destroying furniture and various household goods, mouthing, jumping on owners against commands not to, eating or destroying walls, jumping and staying on couches when commanded not to, chewing fences, jumping fences and going missing.

Jumping, mouthing and general disruptive behaviour to all visitors, the same in presence of owners if dog is taken to relatives or friends or any other social setting, dogs cannot be taken anywhere except park.

OUTSIDE
Pulling owner to park, i.e. no response to heel command, no response to any command in park unless the dog itself decides it wants to, all owners complain of a feeling that the dog has no interest or relationship with them and just does what it wants, when it wants and if it wants, regardless of dangers, no recalls no anything except on training evening at local hall.

Dogs cannot be taken anywhere and be pleasurable to owners and ALL owners tell me (when asked) that prior to the course taking the dog out had become a chore, a burden which they did not look forwards to and which results in thousands of dogs not getting the excercise needed for that dog. All the dogs I see from reward only classes have learning difficulties and are retarded.

I have not had one single dog which does not pull on a lead, despite the facts. I teach the owner to stop it as a medical priority between lesson one, a midweek assement and by the next lesson (7 days from first) it is finished for all time with that dog.

‘Dogs Pulling on a Lead’

ALL people starting ALL training courses in every part of the country should be given the facts about the damage caused by dogs pulling on a lead, ALL my clients get this and much, much more: To see my article on Halters go to the 'Controversial' index and see 'The dangers of Halters types.'

All people going to classes or those taking behaviourists courses should be given the 1992 results at the begining of any course owing to the serious damage caused in the high % of dogs. I consider it inhumane to subject a dog to uneccessary, serious and permament damage when by obedience training it is not neccesar, " Out of sight out of mind" "Well all the other dogs do it" are totaly unaceptable excuses for unnecessary damage and suffering.

In a 1992 study in Sweden on 400 dogs ( quite a substantial amount) all of whom were known to have a history of pulling on leads with occasional jerks, all wore flat buckle collars,

The result of the study showed that the chiropractors found back anomalies in 63% of the 400 dogs…dogs that “acted out” in other words, that exhibited over activity and aggression, 78% had spinal anomalies. Spinal anomalies seem to constitute an irritation that often results in stress reactions, aggression or fear. This is also in accordance with my own and my students’ experience with problematic dogs…

Causes behind spinal anomalies. In the study there were some factors that correlated with spinal anomalies. These were: 1. Accidents. 2.Pulling on leash. 3 Limping during adolescence.
Of those dogs that had Cervical (neck) anomalies, 91% had been exposed to harsh jerks on the leash, or they had a long history of pulling or straining at the end of a leash.

There is a risk of “whip-lash” from jerking the leash that increases if the dog wears a choke chain. Choke chains are constructed such that pulling it results in pressure distributed around the dog’s neck, but the muscles that absorb the pressure a situated mostly at the sides of the neck.

The neck and throat are almost unprotected. For many years people have been criticized for the use of choke chains and training methods that use jerking and pulling on a leash as a means of controlling behaviour. There is a relationship between the force of the jerk, regularity of pulling and risk of injury.

SpeedsMum · DogChat Moderator

So, basically you don't use reward ONLY training, you use reward BASED training and corrections? Do i have that right? So how do *you* correct a dog? How do you go about it? Obviously it's different for every dog - some will just respond to a sharp "no", i'm just curious what the most used method of correction is.

Oh, and i know i can scour UK boards for different dogs with behaviour problems, but i wanted examples from dogs *you* have dealt with since it was yourself that stated :

"All the dogs I accept and se have behaviour problems ariseing out of reward only training. "

You said "all", and i found that VERY weird. i have NEVER met any dog that has developed a behaviour problem because of reward only training - i'm a member of the BAGSD and we do occassionally attend their training classes in which there are at least fifteen [VERY well behaved] dogs that have only every had reward only training!! Ahh well, every dog is different i guess Rolling Eyes

Annette

SilverWolf · Dogaholic

Jojo,

Might I ask how you know exactly where these problems arise from?

Often it is not the training method at fault, more usually it is those who are carrying out the training. Because they might lack consistency, timing and the ability to 'read' the dog and so predict mistakes before they happen (and so not allow the dog to go wrong in the first place), the dog simply gets mixed messages about what is/is not allowed. One day it's ok to pull on the lead, the next day it's not. One moment Dad tells you it's ok to sit on the sofa, the next Mum is screaming in your ears for doing so.

It is very easy to mis-time when clicker-training for example. Someone who uses a clicker 'incorrectly' with their dog will of course find that the animal does not make the associations the trainer would like, and as a result there are 'misbehaviours' seen when cues are given. The reality is usually just that the dog does not understand what he is supposed to do: in which case, how can he be expected to obey a command?

Equally, 'mis-use' of treats can distance a dog from their human and cause the dog only to work when he can see a food reward available, otherwise ignoring cues. Again, this is simply the trainer carrying out the exercise incorrectly, never phasing out the food reward and/or not combining the reward with verbal/tactile praise. Therefore the dog has been taught only to work for the food and not the handler, but again if food rewards are used 'correctly', the dog learns to work on cue with the added bonus of biscuits at random intervals.

There is nothing inherently wrong with treat/food training and it has been proven to work as much as any other method... but it is by no means appropriate for every dog. While I know you understand this, humour me as I explain myself: what is rewarding for every dog is different, and likewise, what works as a correction for every dog is different. While I would never suggest anyone use any method that may be harmful/frightening to their dog, anything that does not cause the dog to suffer is a viable training method if it proves effective (gains results). Some dogs respond to the 'strangest' things.

All the behaviours you describe are common problems people have with their pets, and all the problems derive from lack of training or inconsistent training where there is no clarity for the animal being trained. There are many different ways of handling all of these problems, and the methods will vary from dog to dog depending on the extent of the problem and the individual's character and motivations.

jojo · Dogaholic

Silverwolf,

Often it is not the training method at fault, more usually it is those who are carrying out the training. Because they might lack consistency, timing and the ability to 'read' the dog and so predict mistakes before they happen (and so not allow the dog to go wrong in the first place), the dog simply gets mixed messages about what is/is not allowed. One day it's ok to pull on the lead, the next day it's not. One moment Dad tells you it's ok to sit on the sofa, the next Mum is screaming in your ears for doing so.

JoJo,

I have had no problems whatsoever with the people who have come to me they are quite capable, get the timing right as well as consistency, they have no difficulties learning and need never have gotten into difficulties if they had been taught proper methods, it’s a poor workman who blames the tools.

What you fail to realize is that I fully understand reward only training and it is not an obedience training method for the vast majority of dogs, only low drive, low ranking dogs will succeed in it and some working breeds, that’s because they have a genetically high compliance and predisposition to obedience, low rank drive and do not need formal training courses, though the owners might benefit from a few educational lessons.

Silverwolf,

There is nothing inherently wrong with treat/food training and it has been proven to work as much as any other method

JoJo,
It is a proven failure, just read all these boards and see that. All dogs which will benefit from obedience training ( as stated not all dogs need it ) must have the rank and pack drive stimulated and developed. The people using it do not understand the dogs psychology.

Food stimulates the prey drive it does not stimulate the pack drive, it is fundamentally flawed in the obedience phase of training and not one single person has achieved any recognised qualifications with it.

It is centuries old and used to train dogs for tricks, many of the old master paintings show people 'training' ducks in the park to come to them for treats. When I was a kid it was common party trick stuff to get dogs sitting up begging for treats as well as rolling over.

One of the more unusual, in my experience, of a treat trained dog was two weeks ago when I was rolling a cigarette during training session the dog which was free off lead came and sat in front of me looking at the tobacco pouch, I had forgotten that it had developed a likening for cigarette butts from the ash trays, it had seen my pouch before and that’s what it sat for no commands nothing, it was in prey drive and this was prey drive behaviour, no pack drive motivation at all.

, you can go to any park which has squirrels, just take some nuts and whistles as you throw them, any tune within a couple of days al you have to do to get a squirrel to come to you is whistle the same tune, that is treat training, as old as the hills and even 3-4 year olds can achieve it.

The failure is the fact that people teaching it make up excuses that the clients cannot understand the method and blame the clients. Quite noticeably they all avoid contracts and lessons go on for years.

There are dogs in protection work and well qualified in Schutzhund which benefit from reward only, they are from an East German strain brought in after the Berlin wall came down but these dogs are genetically predisposed to obedience and do not benefit from corrections. In real terms I am talking about exceptional dogs out numbered an unknown thousands to one.

Can you tell me why these reward only trainers do not ensure the client tries the method first and then gets a contract? I think that is the most important part of this entire posting, surely if the methods and abilty to teach those methods were as you describe them it would standard practice to offer a 7-9 weeks contract, that is taking into account some people and their individual dog take longer than others.

Guest

What you fail to realize is that I fully understand reward only training and it is not an obedience training method for the vast majority of dogs

In an earlier message you said that you trained by reward, so you are confusing me now. Please can you explain why you train by reward, but now say it is not a obedience training method.

Pingu · Site Admin

Hello pingi

Thats another behaviourist upset by the word contract, never mind at least you can spell it now

wrong.... (edited to add- just to clarify why the above statement is wrong: I didnt post it, I am not upset and I am not a "behaviourist" however I am, and have been for some considerable time now, been able to spell "contract" so that bit is correct)

I was about to type a fairly longish post agreeing with some of your thoughts re jan fennels methods and mickey mouse beahviourists but dont think I will bother now.

One day you will realise that people are not out to get you and that people are entitled to hold differing views to those that you hold. Either edit your post or I will have it done for you...

on the subject of spelling - that glass house you live in must be getting pretty draughty by now. If you want to carry on insulting me then at least make sure you get the right person in your posts. You still have not answered any questions regarding your background. Is this because you have something to hide?

jojo · Dogaholic

Guest,

In an earlier message you said that you trained by reward, so you are confusing me now. Please can you explain why you train by reward, but now say it is not a obedience training method.

JoJo
No I did not say that, I said I train on reward BASED methods, BUT, ( to add to that) the reward for obedience is not treats, for obedience you must 'stimulate' the pack drive.

Also to add to what I said about the East German lines of mainly GSD's, this level of training is not what any pet owner would want to do, it is intricate, extensive, highly skilled and is allways used in conjunction with developing working excercises (as rewards) also reawrd and punishment and technical terms and have little if anything to do with the everyday human use of them.

Pingu · Site Admin

sorry guest - your question deserves a reply.

I have seen the methods employed by Jan Fennel, and advocated in her books, work in some situations. They are very similar and are possibly based on John Fishers works who had great success stories to tell.

However I feel that some of her teachings can be contradictory at times and some do seem to be a bit pointless. The similarities between wolf behaviour and that of the modern dog has diminsihed over the years as humans have selectivly bred and removed some of the things needed for survival in the wild.

Each dog is different and will require differernt methods of solving whatever problems they have - if any. Jans books do help the average pet owner to begin to understand parts of dog behaviour but there is so much more to learn than "ignore" and "pack ranking".

So on the whole I would say they have their part to play but it is a limited part and in the more extreme behavioural cases the methods may not be appropriate.

Rugby · New Here

I think it's important to remember that, as mentioned eariler, different dogs will respond to different training methods. Jan Fennels methods depend on a connection with wolves and domestic dogs. It is true that over hundreds of years this connection has lessened, but, to various degrees, it is still present. As a very general rule dogs which look most similar to wolves will share more behaviour with them. For example, wolves communicate in 15 ways. These include behaviour which is common for many dogs today (dogs uses growls as warnings or when they roll over in submission) Studies have shown that a Siberian Husky will use nearly all of these. But dogs that look very different from wolves, e.g Bulldogs will use only 1 or 2 of these communications.

This is a very important point to remember when trying to modify behaviour. This will probably mean Jan Fennels methods would be more affective on a Labrador than on a Yorkshire Terrier. But i think one of the most important things Jan does is to get pet owners looking at not just WHAT their dog's are doing, but WHY they might be doing it.

jojo · Dogaholic

Pingu,
You still have not answered any questions regarding your background. Is this because you have something to hide?

JoJo,
Hello Pingu, I see you're demonstarting your intellect again.

Anyway apart form that, I asked one of your collegues, Speedsmum, what she understood and to give some examples of 'positive methods of training' (as she always mentions it ) as she refused to reply can you please tell me your understanding of it?

Rugby, why dogs do what they do is in the drives, the drives are the motive for all the dogs behaviour and in training of any kind it is the stimulation techniques on the drives which motivate it and form its character.

Can anyone say who 'Guest' and who keeps popping up anonimously.

SpeedsMum · DogChat Moderator

have i rattled your cage Jojo?? "she refused to reply"!?!?! Ohhhh dear, i'm VERY sorry my life doesn't revolve around the internet. Please forgive my trangression of not replying soon enough[!]
Positive Reinforcement means just that - the dogs receives a reward for displaying the desired behaviour - a clicker for example works on the principle of positive reinforcement. Our training class does indeed use treats as the reward, and with a very good success rate!
Perhaps you should come along? You'll see in excess of 20 GSDs behaving beautifully. Might open your eyes a little eh?

Annette

PS quick *wave* to my "colleague" Laughing

- hi Pingu

jojo · Dogaholic

Speedsmum, can you tell me how long you have been going to these classes? I think on another thread you mentioned a year but I may be wrong.

Pingu · Site Admin

yes jojo i am demonstarting my intellect... it needed to be demonstarted as for some reason it had demonstopped.

you obviously have some experience in the world of training and, dare i use the b word, behavioural issues. However you simply can not understand that people who disagree with you are not out to get you. Your, often long long long, posts sometimes hold some interesting snippets but its very painful at times picking these out of the padding and insults that they are wrapped in. Drives are NOT the only theory on dog beahviour, you may not agree with some of the other methods but that does not mean they are wrong. People achieve sucess with them and that is what counts. Each dog is different, what works for one may not work for another.

Surely you can see that by refusing to tell anyone about your background, whilst insisting that others tell you about theirs, only damages your credability.

I stopped visiting this forum because of you, not because I didnt like the forum but because it was more hassle than it was worth posting here only to be accused of membership of some terrorist organisation for holding a view that differed to yours. (you may have noticed that some of your comments have been removed btw).

I would say hi to speedsmum at this point but that would just be an indication that we were secretly planning to take over the world by use of clickers and treat based training.

Pingu · Site Admin

sorry rugby

in my obviously thinly disguised message to all budding animal terrorists I neglected to answer your post.

you made some quite relevant points and the bit about wolf/cannine relationships was a very good one. The closer a dog is to the wolf then the easier I think it is to use a lot of the text book methods to work with any behavioural issues. However I also feel that a lot of the issues are caused by the same relationship. The further a dog is away from the wolf the less liely it is to try to use the wolf like behaviours to achieve its goals. Pure supposition, but it is something worth further investigation.

Someone on another board mentioned that the key to it all is in being consistant. One thing I have seen in dogs that have been to a couple of different behaviourists is that sometimes the diff methods employed have just confused the dog and made things worse...

Rugby · New Here

I just want to say one more thing in relation to the atmosphere of the forum.

I think it is disgusting for this forum to be degraded by petty arguments and insults. People read these post to gain more information on dogs, for their own gain or just out of interest and to receive different opinions on various subjects. I am a member of many other forums and i must say this is the ONLY time i have experience any sort of bad feeling between members. I don't know why different opinions can't seem to be stated here sometimes without the post turning rather "nasty".