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jojo · Dogaholic

AquaT

"but ignoring your dog for days for some misdemeanor "

JoJo,

Does she actualy say that?

gypsygirl · Dogaholic

I have never read any of of her book> I should see if the library have any.
AquaT3 if she says ignoring you dog for day for misbehaving. I agree with you it does seem like an idiotic idea. Dogs brains don't work that way. They are not deep thinkers who lay there and ponder their wayward ways. After a few minutes they would have no idea why they are being ignored. It would hurt me to do that. I just couldn't bring myself to ignor Sophie when she comes, smiling eyes and wagging tail to present me with one of her stuffed toys.

Jojo in case you are wondering her obedience training is doing very well and is almost flawless now. Recall off lead when other dogs are around not included. But we are working on that. Rolling Eyes

AquaTJ · Regular

JoJo, it's described on page 163 of 'The Practical Dog Listener' under the title 'what if my dog really misbehaves' she says that one of her dogs picked a fight with another so she kept the troublemaker under the table using eye contact alone, then let her come out after two hours then ignored her when she tried to 'apologise' and ignored her for a further four days. Glaring at her every time she tried to join in with the other dogs. I can't see how the dog would remember what it was it had done, it would still be sheepish because it would sense the owner was cross but I can't see the dog connecting the act with the punishment. Hence, I wouldn't do this Sad

gypsygirl · Dogaholic

She sounds like a bit of a ding bat to by.
I prefer the books by Stanley Coren his "How to Speak Dog" is an excelent book on reading dog body language. His writing style also make his books very easy and entertaining to read.

jojo · Dogaholic

AquaT,

it would still be sheepish because it would sense the owner was cross but I can't see the dog connecting the act with the punishment.

JoJo,

Yes I agree, the dog would not have a clue. A punishment is only a punishment if the dog (or animal) percieves it as a punishment and idealy for that to happen it should happen at the time of the event and be over as quick as it was administered, always pre-ceeded with a command ("N0, Leave etc") the same with reward.

Buit there is detail missing, I mean did she bring it into the house and then do that? or was it between two dogs in the house? if so why did she not read the signals? and many more questions it raises.

In the situation described the dog simply would not know why it's been isolated from the pack as it is the pack drive which would be stimulted by leader rejection.

It sounds like one of those cases where someone does not know what to do so they shove it under the table till they think of something else stupid to try.

AquaTJ · Regular

The description did not say where the dogs were, just that it was between two of Jan's dogs - one was apparently coming into season and happened to be walking passed the other when it was attacked by the second dog. I don't know if it's ok for me to type it out word for word so I won't just in case. I'm assuming that it was more to do with a display/enforcement of leadership than a correction for the act but it is a bit confusing and whatever the reason I can't imagine ignoring a dog for a whole day then going to bed, waking up and carrying on with the ignoring treatment and doing the same the next day and the next Crying or Very sad

I would've thought that would cause more confusion in the relationship with your dog rather than make the boundaries clearer Shocked

jojo · Dogaholic

I think in many ways its funny but the problem I have with it is that people without experience try these things and when they get no results they give up or get fed of the dog(s) and they end up in rescue, ding bat is a really good phrase for her.

Is she in competion with Edgar Alan Poe or Aldus Huxley by any chance?

rottie · Guest

Getting back to the original question about jan fennel, I have read her first book which is okay but no better than that. Unfortunately I live in an area where she is regularly on the local radio doing phone ins , AND SHE DRIVES ME NUTS!!! I have to turn it off she is so BAD SHE SHOUTS AT EVERYONE and talks to them like they are all idiots and then every single phone person gets the same answer to ANY question!!!!!

jojo · Dogaholic

Rottie

"and talks to them like they are all idiots "

JoJo,

It is not just her Rottie, I have been involved in an 'some research' on people calling themselves behaviourists and running either ytrai9ning courses or going into peoples homes.

They invariably talk about people as being to stupid to 'teach' or just plain 'thick', one whose name I cannot write out in full but ED**H PRE**ON, that being the name of a large Lancashire town and who is based in the Southampton area wrote to me saying that her clients were to stupid to learn and equivalent things, she is a member APDT and I still have the emails.

Another one who I spoke to face to face is also an APDT registered member and trains a class at Hounslow, London she even looked as if she hated her pupils and called them totally thick and equivalents, she lives in Hammersmith London has a blue Citroen and VERY quiet, docile dog looks like a collie X with GSD or something, that dog would not need formal training and certainly in my short conversation with its owner she knew little of dogs at all.

I was referred by one of them to book by someone called K Overall in it she said that clients who ‘were capable’ of following some training techniques were very few and far between, I FULLY understand the training techniques she was talking about and I have not come across ONE single person who could not understand them with ease, apparently she was also a member of APDT USA.

Silverwolf said something similar on P2 of this.
Quote "Often it is not the training method at fault, more usually it is those who are carrying out the training. Because they might lack consistency, timing and the ability to 'read' the dog and so predict mistakes before they happen (and so not allow the dog to go wrong in the first place), the dog simply gets mixed messages about what is/is not allowed. One day it's ok to pull on the lead, the next day it's not. One moment Dad tells you it's ok to sit on the sofa, the next Mum is screaming in your ears for doing so. "

I have had absolutely no problem at all with any clients ability to both understand what I am talking about and to put it into practice, let alone "often" if one of my clients is doing something wrong then there is either something wrong with my way of teaching them or whatever I show them does not work and I should not be doing it, that is not the case, so to relate that back to J Fennels radio stuff I would say the same to her as all of them, it’s a poor workman that blames his tools

But taking all that one step further, if the people who are supposed to be being trained by these "so called" methods then how the hell can anyone expect their dogs to become trained if its beyond human comprehension??????????????????!!!!!!

Mad Max Lady · Regular

I've read Jan Fennel's first book, and am ploughing through the second, as I try to read as many 'dog' books as possible, good or bad.
Like most books on the subject, some of what she says is very good, and some of it is, in my humble opinion, a load of old hogwash! She has one 'method' and uses it to treat every problem, which does seem rather simplistic. I'm sure her method works brilliantly with some dogs but I'm sceptical that it's the answer to every problem.

As to the APDT (? Have I got that right ?) I got one of the founding members out to my first rescue GSD. The poor dog was suffering from separation anxiety and was going through a phase of growling at anyone who came near him, apart from me. So this well-known behaviourist got me to hold the dog on the lead, then crouched low and stared menacingly at the dog until he was hysterical ........... and then told me that the dog was dangerous, untrustworthy and should be put to sleep for everyone's safety. That dog was the biggest softie you've ever met, and I've subsequently discovered that it's not unusual for a rescue dog to go through a phase of aggression while it settles into a new home.

But back to Jan Fennel - her 'method' involves 4 key points. I never find that she makes it particularly clear, possibly because she has filled 2 books with words where really one pamphlet would cover it!! Very Happy

jojo · Dogaholic

Hi Max Lady,

Your story is sooo common these days but I have also noticed on some of these UK dog info sites that people are much less reluctant to speak of their experiences than about Feb a year ago. Yes it is APDT.

To come round to your house, playing on your trust, not giveing a contract or offering one and coming out with such rubbish as she did relects on your honesty and their lack of it, yet another member of the APDT

The one I mentioned with ED**TH name said

"As to my experience, I am a member of the Association of Pet Dog Trainers and I used to run a dog Training club. Then I went abroad for five years and came back few months ago. I have also completed a post graduate diploma at Southampton University in Companion Animal Behaviour Counselling"

The sooner people realize that being taught to pass exams in order for the collegue to make its money is in no way a guidline about if that person can deal with problems in dogs.

She knew absolutly nothing about the the methods she claimed in the begining to fully understand, when she was confronted by me she could come up with nothing better than "I read it in a book" and S'hampton Uni touched on it.

I read the part of the book and that was wrong and fiction the same applies to S'hampton Uni which dod not teach her anything factual about what was a training with which I fully understand and use sometimes.

I got the same results with members UKRCB.

Haveing said all that the more people like Max lady and many others who post their stories on these boards the sooner people will stop getting ripped off and get results with their dogs. If there is no contract something is seriously wrong.

Mad Max Lady
never find that she makes it particularly clear, possibly because she has filled 2 books with words where really one pamphlet would cover it!!

JoJo
Yes I have been told several times that she is a talented writer, I just hope people realize thats all it is.

Finaly Mad Max Lady, I hope people really do follow your lead and write here, the founding member of APDT behaved like a Charleton, in the short investigation I was involved non who were contacted knew what they were talking about when it came behavioural problems in the dog described, they all just play on peoples innocence and lack of knowledge and the sooner people expose them the sooner people will get a quaility service from those able to give it and blow out these rip offs rife throughout the dog world.

Margaret* · Guest

JoJo
Yes I have been told several times that she is a talented writer, I just hope people realize thats all it is.

She didn't write the first book, she used a ghost writer. She admitted this to someone I know.

I know a trainer/behaviourist who doesn't charge for the first session, then both owner and trainer/behaviourist discuss the way forward, and if the owner is happy, she then pays for every other session.

I can't remember the fee for JF, but it is a one off fee for 1 session, and you could get her son and not her. There is no back-up.

jojo · Dogaholic

Theres to much exploitation of dog owners by those who know nothing of dog training themselves, al the more reason that those who feel this has happened to them expose in places like this, take into account that in Aug 2002 the numbers of dogs in rescues had reached an all time high and in my own observations there are FAR fewrer dogs around now than in the mid nineteen seventies and eighties, people want to ad to life with a dog and if a training class or behaviourist visitor makes things worse the dogs just end up in rescue.

I only restarted doing training courses again as the rsult (or at least the final straw) of a couple who simply could not cope any longer with a Manchester Terrier, they had been to two reward only classes and had had enough, they were going to put it into rescue.

I gave them a training course and I am now encouraging people to insist on a contract with a try before you buy part. No obedience training course should last more than 7 weeks MAXIMUM without education and not more than 9 with it, if it does something is seriously wrong.

gypsygirl · Dogaholic

Mad Max Lady; Thank goodness you have a few brains. That behavourist that came to see your GSD was no behavourist but a TOTAL IDIOT. Your dog probably suffered from fear aggression, very common in rescue dogs, and staring them in the eye will almost always escelate(sp) the aggression. What a total idiot. Evil or Very Mad

jojo · Dogaholic

The behaviourist most certainly was not an idiot, unless they all are.

What she did is quite standard practice for behaviourists here and lets face it, she got the money and Max Lady had no contract to fall back on. This is quite a normal story, nothing unusual about it.

It makes very good commercial sense to me, look the dog in the eye, turn to the owner and say, "That will be £xxxxx thanks goodby" is that the behaviour of an idiot?

jojo · Dogaholic

A lot of people over a period of these past many, many months have 'asked' me, ( more like demanded ) what my experience with dogs is, as I have made comments about behaviourists, dog therapists etc I think its fair they should know what I am/have done so I have now posted it on the 'Locked Threads' topic at the top of this behaviour index, for those who 'asked'.

I did not bother until now because its of no importance to me.

rottie · Guest

Hiya all,
Well I like this, its got everyone talking and giving opinions and views its great. I am now going to state the obvious in my simplistic way... the trouble with a lot of these behaviourists ( and i have done a little bit myself, a weeks course with John Rogerson plus a few more bits and bobs) IS they lose reality they see EVERY dog as a problem, they have a list of cures for certain problems, well in my humble opinion that cannot possibly work EVERY SINGLE DOG IS DIFFERENT and so are its circumstances.
There is no substitute for experience How many dogs do these people handle I used to work in a kennel and handled over 150 dog a day YES a day!! I now own my own kennels and am still watching and learning.
You know what they say "those that can do, those that can't teach.
Anyone be it trainer or whatever needs a certain amount of people skills its okay having the knowledge but being able to impart of that knowledge on all levels to all people is a skill in itself and in my opinion a skill JF is sadly lacking in.

gypsygirl · Dogaholic

Jojo. Ok it may be standard procedure but in my eyes she is still and idiot and doesn't know a thing about dog body language. Something I think any one who works with problem dogs should be VERY well versed in.
Unfortunatly it is not localized to your side of the ocean. A friend of mine got an adult dog from the SPCA who had shown no agression there. When she got him home, new suroundings, new people, the city where he had been a country dog, a new dog and cats to contend with, the aggression reared its ugly head. She called a well known bahaviourist to evaluate him. Same approach as with Max same outcome and the same advise.
Thank goodness she had a back up person to call, who trians and also specialezes in dogs with problems. Especially rescue dogs. He said hogwash. He is fearfull with all the new changes to his life and we can cure him. I have seen him do amazing things using a dogs own body language to communicate with them and defuse situations, sometimes in only a few minutes.
My friends dog is now fine and very friendly, is in flyball and is starting agility next month. He is still a little nervious of strange men. But with the proper approach 'of don't look him in the eye' He is the one that now approaches them in a few seconds and makes friends. A bump on the hand to let you know that he has decided that you are not a threat after all.
So simple, and yet so hard for people to understand. To us looking a person in the eye as we speak is the polite thing to do. In the dog world a dog looking another strange dog in the eye is a challange.
For any disbelievers, pay very close attention to your dog next time he meets a strange dog. They will have brief eye contact and then one will look away.
A new thread on dog body language would be very interesting. There is so much to learn. Ddogs mainly communicate with body language and we would all be better dog owners if we learned to read it.

jojo · Dogaholic

Sure but this kind of story is all over the net, any dog site has dozens of stories about behaviourists doing similar stuff and getting paid for it.

I will say this to anyone.

The psycholgy of a dog is SIMPLE, very, VERY simple. Its psycholgy is in its drives, if you are taught the drives you will understand how to train your dog and get 100% results, before I leave anyones home after an initial assesment they have a reasonable knowledge to actually work with their dog between that assessment and their first lesson.

When I go back for the first lesson the changes in the dog and its affection for them (as opposed to the indifference of a disobedient dog ) is beyond any expectations they have ALL had, BUT, the most important thing is they UNDERSTAND how they themselves have brought those changes about.

All this commercial rubbish put about trying to make you think understanding the dog is a sophisticated, complicated and secret thing and beyond the ability of the average pet owner is NOTHING more than a commercial gimmick designed specificaly to make people think "Oh I could never do that" and then pay endless amounts of money, almost for the dogs lifetime on what is NO MORE than the dogs obedience, which is gained primarily by ensureing the dogs rank is lower in the dogs perception than any member of the family.

It is SIMPLE and ANYONE can understand it if it's taught properly and in a legible way with demonstrations of drive change in a dog and a couple of SIMPLE graphics.

Don't pay the con artists to stare you're dog in the eye, try staring them in the eye and saying "Go away" but not in a polite manner, you know the 'impolite' phrase, use it! Razz

They all call themselves behaviourists and make claims which put the dog in a realm of sceince fiction, don't beleive them.

Guest

Jojo I disagree with you. Learning how to read dog body language is not beyone the scope ot the average dog owner. It is actually not that hard once you learn to become observent. Now teaching people to be observant and notice the smallest nuances(sp) in a dogs body signals, that can be tricky. People tend to see the dog as a whole and not a individual parts. Man sees dog. Its black, long hair. Tail position, was it wagging slowly, quickly or not wagging, was the tail held upright, at half mast or low. Ear positions, pricked forward, laid flat, facing backwards and half down. They didn't notice. These are some of the body signals that are given by a dog. Letting us know how they are feeling and what their attitude is in a given situation. These are the things we have to teach ourselves to notice. Any trainer, or behavourist who can't, or will not bother to learn to read the body signals doesn't deserve the name. I would personally not let that person anywhere near my dog for training or evaluation purposes. Some dogs like the GSD with upright ears and a full tail are much easier to read than a Spaniel with drooping ear and a docked tail. But for someone who has taken the time to recoznize and leaarn the more subtle signes, they they are all there in black and white for us to read. A reply can be made under the topic Dog Body Language.