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Guest · Guest

General opinions?

What did people think to the tv show she did as well as her book. I know the show got great audience and the book has sold very well I was wondering what the general feeling was amongst the sort of people who come on this board. I notice there are a lot of people who come here very briefly to get help and there are others who hand out some really excellent advice constantly.

jojo · Dogaholic

Jan Fennel is a gifted writer and has a good commercial mind, she is a very good buisness woman and knows that what she writes is what many people want to hear.

As regards what she knows about cannine behaviour, I have not read her but from what people say when they quote her, such stuff as if a dog is dominant all you need to do is make it go out the door behind you, well, thats sheer c**p,
I am aware that her agent reads this site and I would challenge Jan Fennel or her agent to this, if they really have the confidence to work with problem dogs then offer the clients an equivilent to my contract, a copy is below, my name is ommited, EVERY client gets this;
________________________________________________

Page1. Agreement between the undersigned for the offer and acceptance of a service, namely, basic obedience and home management course for dog(s) and owners.

Part 1. Trainers offer of service to the client named below.

T1. The trainer offers a course of , one assessment plus 6 lessons over a 6 week period with a further 3 weeks follow up support described below. The goal of the 6 lessons is that the dog will comply to the recall command, to within touching distance of the client and from a distance of not more than an estimated 50 metres with mild distractions to which the dog is tempted to approach ( e.g. other non-aggressive dogs in sight ), all round acceptable obedience and culturally acceptable behaviour in all environments where the owner is present..

T2. In the case of dogs which have been dominant in the family the trainer offers to teach drive stimulation techniques which will modify the dogs rank status, in a humane way, without undue stress to either dog or client, and reduce the dogs rank to the lowest rank member of its pack i.e. its human family or client and eliminate any significant disruptive behaviour in the home and in conjunction with all round basic obedience. The former is guaranteed to occur within 2 weeks of assessment and start to noticeably occur on the day of assessment, the later within or by the 6th lesson.

T3. The trainer offers to teach the client drive stimulation techniques which will make behavioural changes to dogs which are disruptive and or destructive in the home to behaviour which is non-disruptive, non-destructive, within reason. And compatible with the clients stated needs and within reason.

T3a. In this instance the meaning of within reason means; that the dog does not on any frequent and persistent basis carry out behaviour unwanted by the client conditional on the client following all training criteria taught.

T4. The trainer offers to teach the client techniques to form a closer, healthier and recognisably more enjoyable relationship than the relationship prior to the intervention of training methods taught by the trainer to the client.

T5. The trainer offers midweek assessments at travel and accommodation only, costs specific to individual clients, travel type is entirely at trainers chosen method.

T6. The trainer offers a support service, inclusive in the course fee, the support lasts a maximum of 9 weeks from a successful assessment day. The support service comprises of two telephone calls per week and one home visit, the travel and telephone call costs must be met by the client and the actual day of home visits should be by mutual agreement, if that cannot be reached then the it must be at the trainers discretion.

T7. The trainer explains which training equipment, if any, is needed by the client and unambiguously tells the client he/she is responsible for providing the equipment. The trainer herby informs the client that the success of the course is dependant on the client using the equipment in the way taught, the methods and daily training as specified.

T8. In the event of a client sampling the service of assessment, mid week assessment and one lesson and then deciding they do not requiring a full course within 3 days of the first lesson no fee is payable. If after the passing of 3 days has occurred after the first lesson a fee of £100 is payable, this inhibits abuse of the system.
I, xxxxx the undersigned, am the trainer and offer my service to; ………………………………............................................................................................................................
assessment date............................................Trainers signature………………………………...........

Page 2. Clients receipt of service and agreement for complete course.

Part 1. The client confirms the following.

C1a. The methods of training have been fully explained, demonstrated and taught and match all descriptions in part 1 of the trainers offer of service.

C2b. The client has received an assessment visit combined with demonstrated drive stimulation techniques , educational tuition, interim assessments and one lesson.

C3c. I have had a total of two weeks to assess and sample the trainers course and offer of service.

C4d. Both educational and training techniques have been taught in such a way that I understand them easily and comprehensively and I am able to apply them both at home and in the environment.

C5e. The service is as described in part 1 of the trainers offer of service, it is satisfactory and suitable for the purpose intended.

Clients name address;
. Signature, Date

Part 2A. The client requests and agrees to the following:

C1f. I request the service I have sampled to continue for the full period as described in Part 1 the trainers offer of service. That is 5 further lessons, any assessments suggested by the trainer and the 2 weeks follow up support service offered by the trainer

C2g. I agree to provide all equipment suggested by the trainer, to comply to all schedules, to inform the trainer as soon as possible of any problems with the training and accept his remedy of the problem(s).

C3h. I will not use or attempt to use any other methods except those instructed by the trainer without prior consultation and agreement in writing between both parties.

C4I. I agree to pay the trainer the fee of £xxx prior to the second lesson, I understand the only other monies payable are travel costs for interim assessments and any visits in the 2 weeks follow up support.

C5J. I accept the travel/accomodation costs are payable at the sum of £xx per visit that being the petrol/accomodation for the total journey of xxx miles appx. The client is notified that due to prior arrangements the trainer will be absent and unable to carry out lessons at end of Feb 03. The course will continue by mid Feb 03.

Signature………………………………............date…………………………..

Part 2B. The client wishes to discontinue the course program.

C1H. I have sampled the assessment, interim assessment(s) and one lesson as described in part one and do not wish to continue with the remainder of the course.

I accept/dispute the fee of £100 for the service received to date.

Signature………………………………..................................date………………………………............
_________________________________________

I think maybe a follow up post to this is 'should clients puh for fair contracts', but thats a post for clients to start.

So above is my personal response to the question on Jan Fennel.

So Jan Fennel or agent will you take up my suggestion and offer a 9 week contract INCLUDING education?

tempest · Regular

Well JoJo it sounds like you offer an exceptional service - you obviously feel very strongly about standard of service which is good and is coming over on most of your comments but that also has the disadvantage of sounding a little too much as an advert for your business. Confused

tempest · Regular

No offence intended there jojo, it just comes over quite aggressive! Guess that' s because you are so involved but bear in mind there are those of us that it alarms!!

jojo · Dogaholic

Tempest, yes I think you are correct, it does sound like a business add.
However, it is not.

I have not yet put my experience and history on this board, despite the fact that I have been around here since late July last.

One reason is that someone can be on their first dog and never had a dog before and they are as able to take an internationally recognised working title if they have received quality training and have the dog and the training facilities to do it as someone who has had dogs for 40 - 50 years.

Having watched young trainers in Europe, some not even left school, and the skills, in depth knowledge and above all the relationship with their dogs I tend to feel it is so artificial to say things such “I have had dogs xxx years so ‘I know’ this & that” or “I have done this and that”.

In fact there is a 15 year old in this country who already has an internationally recognised obedience title, and is well underway to the next stage and the dog and breed he is useing is not of a type well know for its obedience. So, with a 15 YO already at world level obedience in UK that raises the question what has Jan Fennel got? Nothing of recognition! but she's a damn good writer, very talented from what I have heard and a hell of a businesswoman.

It has to be remembered that he/all of us have exactly the same behavioural characteristics to deal with, dogs eating dog muck, dogs snapping, dogs scavenging dogs in fact showing normal dog behaviour, but they are dealt through obedience. I guess he is the difference betwen someone trained by trainers and those who suffer at the hands of behaviourists who are well represented on all UK dog boards, not least this.

Some people have tended to pressure me into saying what my background is, if you want to read some of them try this post ‘New dog and I aren't getting along!’ I think around page two someone called ‘Pingi or Pingon’ asked in his own way, I did not feel it worth answering.

So, getting back to your valid point. I have my own tiny but healthy import, wholesale, retail business. Prior to that I was a caberate artist. I did run training classes in the eighties but not for profit, I also ran some elementary working training courses and then some private lessons in the early nineties, there were a lot of trainers around then all with outstanding achievements of some kind who did the same.

But my life is from the arts and dog training was really to get a sense of responsibility and knowledge to those who needed it, I did train my own dogs to working levels if the dog had the genetics.

It's not a major part of my income by any means and I have a dog coming in from Europe within this next 5 weeks so my current client is probably my last, I turn down quite a lot because I do not think I could train the people or often the dogs don't need training. I only restarted a year ago, supposedly as a temp thing, I'll give the reasons when I write my background.

I will post my background as regards dogs and maybe more important why I took up taking on clients again, within this next 48 hours.

jojo · Dogaholic

Tempest,

"No offence intended there jojo, it just comes over quite aggressive! Guess that' s because you are so involved but bear in mind there are those of us that it alarms!! "

JoJo,
Can you be more specific and who is 'us' of those who read these posts. ?
I hope no ones PC fuses when they read my posts.

Guest

sounds to me like a personal advertisement. i would love to know how you know who visits this site jojo. would also love to hear about how you select the dogs who you train seeing as before you have said you avoid any dogs who are rescue or have anything less than a perfect background. offer some practical advice for a change rather than repeating yourself over and over. its so dull!

jojo · Dogaholic

Hello pingi Sad

Thats another behaviourist upset by the word contract, never mind at least you can spell it now Laughing

SpeedsMum · DogChat Moderator

Is that true Jojo? You refuse to train rescue dogs??? Why is that?
Just curious....
Also, i agree with Tempest - your post/advertisement/whatever really does come across as aggressive! My PC certainly won't fuse but i simply don't see the point in writing in such an aggressive manner - you don't have to be so defensive!! Rolling Eyes

Annette

jojo · Dogaholic

No I don't refuse to train rescue dogs, in the case of those it would depend on the dog, it's not the dog I asses really I asses the entire situation but it's mainly the owner that I am either able or unable to teach to train their dog and form a fullfiling relationship. I have saved at least one dog going into rescue, which was why I re-started part time training again, they could no longer cope with it and after a string of classes and behaviourist visits they had given up.

All the dogs I accept and se have behaviour problems ariseing out of reward only training.
You have to remember that I work from guaruntee and there are a lot of people who I know would simply accept a lesson and then totaly ignore the dog and lesson untill next visit, there are others who simply substitute the dog as some kind of small human and want to teat it as such, I cannot teach them to train a dog as if it were a human.

Why is what I wrote commercial? (1) if you read many of my posts I have constantly said do not take on a behaviourist or dog therapist and similar titles unless they offer a contract. This post was more relevant to post what they should get if the person dealing with them has the knowledge, experience and can teach them. (2.) Even if it were commercial then it gives an excellent guidline to people to know what to expect and what to demand before parting with any money. That knowledge can only be of benefit to all dog owners who want to live with a dog as a friend, a companion and something to enjoy by being problem free.

If more and more clients isnisted on a contract on a try before you buy basis then the nations dogs would benefit, LESS dogs would end up in resuce centres, not just another behaviourist walking down the drive with more money and a client who eventually posts on here asking for help.

Someone has to take the lead and give readers some idea of what they should get and I have no qualms or reservations about that someone being me.

Finaly, where did I say I did not take rescue dogs? I would say there is far less likelyhood as they are special INDIVIDUAL cases and in my opinion rescue centres should offer prospective owners proper lessons otherwise they can end up back again.

SpeedsMum · DogChat Moderator

Rugby · New Here

JoJo,

Although i do not have years or experience or a wide knowledge of different training techniques and their consequences, i think it's unfair to suggest positive reinforcement causes behaviour problems. I have read your past posts and i know you veiw reward based training very poorly. I know that if this method is used incorrectly then it may reinforce "bad" behaviour, but ANY training method used in the wrong way will have a negative outcome.

I train my dog's using reward based training and i have wonderful results. For me, this method works, and have not heard or seen any evidence that prove's rewards don't work. If you choose not to use this method, and your own training style work well then i can understand why you support it 100%, but i bet there are many very good trainers who would disagree with you.

It always seems like you are against any idea's that are not your own. I don't know if this is intended, but i hope it isn't. You give great advice based on your knowledge and experience, but so do many others.

I do agree though that a contract is the best idea. There are Dog psychologists, trainers etc who seem to give very bad services. A contract would help to make sure no one is taken for a ride.

Louise

jojo · Dogaholic

Rugby
I have read your past posts and i know you veiw reward based training very poorly.

JoJo.

I don't think you have read my many posts, can you copy and past anywhere I have said I do not aggree with reward 'based' training.

Rugby
I train my dog's using reward based training and i have wonderful results.

JoJo,
Yes, so do I because I use reward based training, no animal will train if a system is not rward based.

Rugby · New Here

Apologies, my wording in that post was slightly wrong. Most training systems are reward based, and i know your training methods are reward "based" as well. What i intended to comment on was the fact you have said you use correction methods, where as other trainers will use REWARD ONLY. I don't have time to go through all the post to pick out various comments you may have made, and to be honest, i wouldn't want to anyway. I'm not bad mouthing you, and i didn't expect you to be so defensive. If i made a comments in my post that offended you then i'm sorry.

jojo · Dogaholic

1. Do you mean you use reward only on all dogs? are you talking about the 'teaching' phase or obedience training phase?

2. To repeat and clarify exactly what I am talking about, from other postings of mine. When I mention 'training'. I mean expressly the point in time when most dogs start to show rank challenges, usually between 6-12 months old, this is the point for 'obedience' training.

3. I did not mean the 'teaching' phase, from day one of getting the pup, the teaching phase is lure, drive development via play and reward on pack drive only training until a point is reached where the dog understands its commands and then starts challenging.

4.
Have you redefined the usual understood meaning of 'defensive'? does your new definition mean; that when A corrects B for stating that A said something which A did NOT say thereby changing the entire meaning of what A DID say A is not correcting but defending against B's grossly misleading inaccuracies ?

5. Why be grossly inaccurate to the point it changes the entire meaning of what someone says in the first place?

Apart from all that, I am surprised you are not making comments and giving guidelines to new owners ( or people who might have had low drive quiet dogs in the past and who now end up here not knowing what to do because they are in an unhappy position with a more energetic and dominant dog ) to insist on contracts for combined obedience and education courses lasting no more than 8-10 weeks at the end of which they come out knowing all they will ever need to know about dog training from the puberty stage of the dog onwards and with a dog which is completely free to safely and reliably be offload anywhere it's legal.

Surely it should be a priority of all responsible trainers and to come onto these boards and help potential clients to get written, signed and guaranteed training programs instead of never the ending classes people seem to experience as a norm with phenomenal behaviour problems resulting from incompetent or rip off training, almost invariably run by people calling themselves 'behaviourist' trainers, and seen all over the UK net dog boards, don't you think?

Finaly, based on all the stories of people liveing in a disastor situation with their dogs, after going to these classes, do you think the time has now come to re-title these classes as 'Canine Misbehaviourist' courses?

SilverWolf · Dogaholic

Here we go.

I hate repeating myself, but ho-hum:

In every profession, you have people who know their stuff and do a damn good job, and you have those who don't. You hear of doctors on the news who are mass-murderers, but then if you are ever in need of a life-saving operation, there are those there who can literally perform miracles. There are electricians who charge a fortune for a botch job, and those who are squeaky-clean and charge a fair price. Similarly, there are behaviourists who can save dog's lives (dogs who cannot be cured of aggression are invariably PTS) and you have those who make matters worse. You cannot label every behaviourist/trainer/psychologist 'bad' because of the title he or she works under.

DogChat is a board for dog lovers to come to to share ideas, ask advice, and generally natter about our beloved pets. If someone asks: "My dog has a problem, please help!" I expect the last thing they want to hear is "Go find a behaviourist/trainer." as the stock answer. While I am by no means suggesting that all problems can be solved by reading messages on a forum, sometimes suggestions can be offered and ideas can be made to help this person get the results they are looking for. Of course if your dog has a serious problem, the dog needs veterinary/other professional attention, or you are simply unsure of how to go about the training yourself, you should get more help. No one is disputing that.

"Apart from all that, I am surprised you are not making comments and giving guidelines to new owners ( or people who might have had low drive quiet dogs in the past and who now end up here not knowing what to do because they are in an unhappy position with a more energetic and dominant dog ) to insist on contracts for combined obedience and education courses lasting no more than 8-10 weeks at the end of which they come out knowing all they will ever need to know about dog training from the puberty stage of the dog onwards and with a dog which is completely free to safely and reliably be offload anywhere it's legal."

Let's take abused dogs: an 8-10 week course of obedience may not solve his problems, they may infact damage him even more. If an animal is not emotionally ready to deal with day-to-day life, he cannot be expected to follow obedience lessons, and he certainly cannot be expected to be performing like a pro in such a short period. To recommend your guidelines to everyone, Jojo, would, in my opinion, be too generalising and would not cater for individual requirements. Not all dogs are the same, therefore not all dogs can be successfully trained in the same way and within the same time restrictions.

As an aside, no dog is completely safe to be free anywhere it is legal. The dog's prime instinct (yes, instinct) is survival - therefore if anything threatens him it may act upon his drives (flight?) and cause him to put himself at risk. So, letting a dog off-lead near a road is completely legal, but it is never completely safe. If something made your dog run in terror, no matter how well trained he is, responding to your voice is of secondary importance... hence he may well run into traffic and be killed.

New owners and anyone with problems should be encouraged to explore for themselves ALL the options available: I have a problem with choke-chains, for example, because I have seen the physical damage they can do - you clearly think that treat training is damaging, and of course you are entitled to that opinion, although many will dispute it. If you genuinely believe that 8-10 weeks of stock training by your methods will suit each and every dog, no matter what their problem, then good luck to you. I must admit, when I started out, I was sure that 'my' training methods would suit every dog and would always work. Fortunately, one happy little fellow set out to prove me wrong, and once I'd swallowed my pride and broadened my horizons, I became a much better trainer/behaviourist for it. Adapting to suit the dog is critical: there is no 'one method fits all' in the world of dogs.

With regards to Jan Fennel, and indeed others - how can you justifty your criticism when you have not read her work and are going simply on conjecture and hearsay? I have read a little of her writing and must admit that I don't think much of her theory, but I would not make such a statement not having even had a look through.

Many people who come here to give advice are just dog owners with no professional interest in training/behaviour. Some do have this professional interest, but perhaps these folk choose to come here to help and volunteer advice without a thought for personal gain? There is no 'responsibility' - other than a moral obligation to try and help people live more happily with their pets, which can often be done simply by giving a few pointers rather than launching into the do's and don'ts of hiring a professional. If this is a great concern of yours, a new thread might be interesting.

In conclusion, while you have clearly come into contact with a number of people whose dogs have been ill-educated - possibly a single class in your area? - many others have only positive things to say about treat/toy training and will assure you that they do not live 'in a disastor situation with their dogs'. When done correctly, food/toy training does not distance you from the animal, it is a way of strengthening the bond, and while it is NOT appropriate for every dog (shock/horror!) a combination of such training and other methods often is. No single method works for every dog, unless you are working within a very specific field with very specific dogs (ie. service dogs all undergo the same training, but you will not find a wide range of types/personalities in these areas).

Rugby · New Here

JoJo,

I'm amazed. I admitted and apologised for i put my point across badly at first, but silverwolf said exactly what i wanted to say so i won't explain myself again.

I do NOT visit various dog forums to have petty arguments about what others did and/or didn't say. If you think i had misunderstood your previous posts i would have expect you to put me right. If that was the case i would have been willing to admit it. But i have made a similar point on other sites, to other trainers/dog owners in the past but i have NEVER had the kind of reaction that you gave me. You reply as if i was making a personal insult, which was never my intention, and i thought that was clear in my last post.

From now on i'll think long and hard before posting on this site next time... i'd hate for my words to upset someone else, esp on a site that is here to help and give relevant advice to all.

tempest · Regular

Well done Silverwolf for putting it all down so eloquently!! I couldn't agree more! Very Happy

jojo · Dogaholic

Silverwolf,

Let's take abused dogs: an 8-10 week course of obedience may not solve his problems.

JoJo,
For those who have not read my previous posts.
I have REPEATEDLY and CLEARLY stated, many, MANY times that I am NOT referring (on this board) to rescue dogs or ANY dog than dogs which have not had a normal ( by that mean dogs which have not had traumatic experiences during the first critical 16 weeks of life and ended up in rescue or abused dogs) background. I have REPEATEDLY stated, quite clearly that such dogs are INDIVIDUAL cases and should be dealt with as such and I am never refering to them in any of my posts unless I state otherwise. Silverwolf knows this.

Silverwolf,
So, letting a dog off-lead near a road is completely legal, but it is never completely safe. If something made your dog run in terror, no matter how well trained he is, responding to your voice is of secondary importance... hence he may well run into traffic and be killed.

JoJo
My comments were addressed to people like me of ordinary intelligence and who make decisions within the bounds of common sense, I am satisfied in my own mind such people would not assume I meant let the dog off near a road without having to write another sentance, although, clearly there are some who need more A is for apple, B is for baa lamb,C is for clot, type basics.

Silverwolf
If you genuinely believe that 8-10 weeks of stock training by your methods will suit each and every dog, no matter what their problem.

JoJo,
It is not the dog I train it is the person, I don’t take everyone on as I can do nothing for people who see their dog as human baby with fur.

There are very few dogs indeed which need more than 7 weeks obedience course, if you read my contract again you will find they get a complete education course NOT just obedience training, it is the education which takes a longer time.

Some dogs I come across are low drive, low rank dogs, they need no formal obedience course at all and I tell the owners that.

Most owners of such dogs I might offer a maximum of two educational lessons with their dog at travel costs only, however, I will not travel outside the greater London area for this and do it only if I have time ( whicxh is very rare). If I have to make special time then I will charge a fee but not before I tell people their dog does not need formal training.

Silverwolf,

Many people who come here to give advice are just dog owners with no professional interest in training/behaviour.

JoJo,

The ONLY people I teach/train are PET owners all who have had problems with reward only training classes and many who have had visits from behaviourists.

I am hardly likely to teach working trainers many of whom could teach me a thing or three!

Silverwolf,

In conclusion, while you have clearly come into contact with a number of people whose dogs have been ill-educated - possibly a single class in your area?

JoJo,
I only took one person from my area, another asked but I thought the dog did not need training, I just showed them a few methods for that dog, no charge. The first person has apparently shown several people since who I do not know but there are not many dogs around here and non really which get much more than a daily walk around a 100yds square green.

I live in London and most people I see live south of Northampton and as far south as Brighton, I did travel to the Preston area for one client and another on the Birkenhead area side of Liverpool but they must pay all accommodation and xtra travel time, some times I can refer them to someone.

Above all I repeat the point that any potential client of a behaviourist or any traineing course should insist on a contract and with full education that should not have more than 9 weeks duration, it should also be on a try before you buy basis, if that is not offered then it can only because the person offering a course does not have the necessary skills and know they cannot give you the results you require and deserve as a client paying for a service.

The same applies to one visits by behaviourists or dog therapists or similar titles, there’s a racket going on worse than the back st garages, don't fall financial victim to them and end up with a dog with sthe same problem and you in more despair 'cause you think nothing can be done.

SilverWolf · Dogaholic

Jojo,

"I have REPEATEDLY and CLEARLY stated, many, MANY times that I am NOT referring (on this board) to rescue dogs or ANY dog than dogs which have not had a normal ( by that mean dogs which have not had traumatic experiences during the first critical 16 weeks of life and ended up in rescue or abused dogs) background."

I may 'know' this, but it is something you should repeat every time you talk about your training regime because it is pretty crucial to most dog owners. It is important for any one who has not read your other posts and then reads this post to understand. It is also particularly relevant as you will notice that many posters on here do have dogs with uncertain backgrounds who may well have suffered 'traumatic experiences' that no one is fully aware of.

"My comments were addressed to people like me of ordinary intelligence and who make decisions within the bounds of common sense..."

Personal insults are not necessary. I was merely pointing out a flaw in what you were saying: the roadside is a legal place to have your dog off-lead, but it is not 'safe' to do so.

You obviously felt rather upset when writing your last post - I do not intend to inflame, merely to offer another slant for anyone reading the thread. As I have said, you are perfectly entitled to your own opinions, but do not be surprised to have them challenged on a discussion board. You can still get your point across without having to make offensive remarks or implications about other posters.